Sep 7 • 54:32

In this episode, I sit down with Jeffrey Su.

Jeffrey is an online fitness coach and business mentor. He has a knack for calling out BS in the online fitness space.

We dive into controversial topics such as:

• Coaches not paying taxes

• Cold DMing

• Financing a business coach

• Paying prospects in a "challenge" or "scholarship"

Tune in to hear us go back and forth on these issues and more! Also, stay until the end to hear the most emotional money decision Jeffrey made and his one financial question for me.

Jeffrey Su on Instagram

First Call Out Fitness

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FULL UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Justin Green, CFP®: Welcome to the dollars in dumbbells podcast. I'm your host, Justin Green, a certified financial planner who specializes in helping fitness entrepreneurs and millennials grow their network. The goal is to bring you conversations with successful individuals in the fitness industry on how they navigated their journey to success.

Justin Green is the founder and financial planner at assist FP, a financial planning firm. All opinions expressed in the show are solely those of Justin and not reflective of assist FP. This podcast should not be considered advice. It is solely for educational, informational and entertainment purposes only.

Please consult with your financial advisor tax legal and any other advisor you have before making any decisions regarding your financial plan.

Welcome back to the dollars and dumbbells podcast. I'm your host, Justin Green today. I'm excited to bring you my conversation with Jeffrey SU Jeffrey is a, an online business and fitness coach. Someone sent me a screenshot of a post. He had on Instagram a couple months back where he talked about taxes. And so that got me interested and I checked out his profile and he is known for his hot takes. And so I wanted to get him on the podcast and talk to him about some of those hot takes and we had a really healthy. Conversation where we agreed on some points and we disagreed on others and just had a really, really fun conversation diving into a lot of the things that are going on in the fitness industry, whether they're good or bad. 

And he just calls out a lot of the BS and he just calls it how he sees it. And I appreciate that whether I agree with it or not. So how fun listening in, and don't forget to leave us a five star review if you'd like the episode. So subscribe and leave a review. Let's dive in. 

for coming on Jeff. I appreciate it.

[00:01:54] Jeff Su: Yeah, thanks for having me. 

This 

is 

[00:01:56] Justin Green, CFP®: Yeah, absolutely. Real quick. Let everyone know. Where are you calling in?

[00:02:00] Jeff Su: I am from Massachusetts. So I live in a town called Westboro, which is about 45 minutes west of Boston. So you probably wouldn't know Westborough, but most people know Boston.

[00:02:10] Justin Green, CFP®: Yeah. And I actually do cuz it's about 10 minutes from me. So it's kind of funny when I, uh, you know, when I found you, I, I reached out to you to come on the show and then I saw you posted a story and tagged Westborough. And I was like, wait, dude, you're like two towns over from me. Uh, so it's kind of funny small world.

Um, All right. So you are a business coach, a fitness coach, a little bit of both. Tell us about that.

[00:02:33] Jeff Su: Yeah, a little bit of both. I mean, I own a company called first call out fitness. I started it back in like 20 12, 20 13 ish. So about 10 years now, I'm primarily a fitness coach. I work with, you know, the general population. On various health issues. I have a couple athletes, you know, who will compete in, you know, your typical body building bikini, you know, categories.

Um, and in the last two years, I started, uh, teaching a little bit more teaching other coaches, and that has sort of expanded into mentoring, um, other coaches and trainers in business.

[00:03:07] Justin Green, CFP®: Gotcha. Okay. And you're, um, printing notorious on Instagram for calling things out. So I always laugh. You're you're, it's called first call out fitness, and I know that's a reference to body building, uh, I actually, I I've in my head. It's like, cuz you call things out. You call BS out all the time. Um, you're not afraid to call people out as well.

It definitely entertaining, uh, to follow you on Instagram. And that's how I actually found you. So, uh, I had a client send me over. Um, uh, one of your stories, couple weeks back. And, uh, I, I liked it cuz I agreed with it. I resonated with it. And so I'm gonna read that off. You were like before this like, I don't even remember what it was, so I'm gonna read it off and we're gonna dive into it.

It's about taxes and then, uh, there's a couple other ones and so let's, let's do it. Uh, so what you said was, uh, you were kind of going on a rant about coaches. maybe flexing a little harder than they should, and not understanding like the finances. And so you say, keep in mind, you have to pay taxes too. Uh, most coaches who say they make, let's say 20 K per month, half of that goes to overhead like VAs hiring assistant coaches to do the work.

Uh, I don't leave the next part out and then paying for some guru to send you modules to watch for 5k a month. So you're left with 10 K pretax. You get tax and you take home 7,500 a month at. That's not all, but now let's not forget. You gotta peacock on social media and show you live the lifestyle shoes, bags, cars, watches, nails, lashes, etcetera.

How much are you really earning? Do you remember 

[00:04:45] Jeff Su: I do I do.

[00:04:47] Justin Green, CFP®: yeah, so I liked it because one, you talked about taxes, I'm a finance guy, so I'm a financial planner for online health and fitness coaches. Uh, and then when I reached out to you and was like, yo, I like this. You were like, yeah, actually I like, I have a background with an MBA and, and, uh, financial analyst for quite a while.

So, you know, not just some Joe Schmo kind of, you know, pretending like they know the finance side. Uh, so I wanted to dive into that a little bit. Like, what do you see a lot? Uh, do you see a lot of coaches who. Aren't paying their taxes or aren't prepared to do it, or like, just pretend like it doesn't happen.

I know a lot of people focus on that revenue number and I'm always wanted to be like, I don't really care about your revenue. Well, I do care, but like, I need to know that, but then that's not gonna tell me the full story.

[00:05:26] Jeff Su: Right. It's the middle piece, you know, obviously, you know, your P and L and then the bottom line, what you actually take home. Right. And then you're taxable. And then your actual income after that. But I, I do see a lot of coaches who are probably not paying taxes and you know, all of it, you know, in the beginning when I started, I didn't, I didn't do that either.

I didn't run every dollar I made, you know, to the government, you know, say, Hey, I made this amount of money every month. Um, you know, cuz a lot of, um, the pay apps, you know, like Zelle cash app, Venmo, a lot of that is still untracked. Um, and I, and I imagine that, you know, you know, with the IRS beefing their, um, their staff up and going after more dollars to shore up our, our budget deficit.

I do think that, you know, people are gonna be weeded out and exposed and they're gonna be left, you know, holding the bag so to speak, you know? So, um, you know, I see a lot of, you know, cause I'm on Venmo, right? So you can see like who's paying who for what, there's a lot of stuff that's going under the table, you know?

[00:06:29] Justin Green, CFP®: interesting. Yeah, no, it's, it's really important. I mean, you know, people stress the, when ven, when they added the new law where Venmo had to report it, people were stressing out about that. To be honest with you, it was always against the law. So it wasn't something new that was also very MIS, uh, represented in social media.

It was like, okay, well, nothing's actually changing. They're just gonna have to report like traditional banks. Do. That's just because our government's like 10 years behind with technology, truthfully, it probably should have happened a long time ago. Um, you just got lucky and Venmo was kind of like cash where no one knew what was going on.

Doesn't happen anymore. Cuz finally the government catches up, but there's a lot of misinformation out there on that. Um, what, so you know what I find when I, you know, work with newer coaches is it's not intentional. It's more just like they are tracking. but they don't know. They have to set aside the taxes.

And so what happens is that first year maybe they haven't made a whole lot of money, so it's not a big deal, but it's that first year where they blow up, which sometimes can happen really quickly overnight with coaches. Um, that's where it really hurts them because, you know, let's say year one, they only made like 20 grand.

Okay. That's not gonna be that big of a deal. But then if the next year you made 150 grand, you didn't set aside any cash for. taxes That's when it catches up to you. So I see that a lot.

[00:07:50] Jeff Su: Oh, yeah, absolutely. And the thing is like, even if you did get away with it for a very, very long period of time, good luck getting a mortgage. Or good luck building any credit because I, I don't know if people, some people who are still renting and have not gone through the mortgage application process, like I had to be audited, like my bank audited seven years worth of my transactions.

To the point where they asked or the, the lender asked for all of my bank statements. So they could see every little transaction that I made. Like, did I go to this restaurant on this date in like 2018? Like that was all on there. Every dollar that came in, every dollar that came out. Any amounts that were questionable, they would say, is this real income or not?

So I had to be vetted thoroughly in order to, to buy my house. You know? So a lot of people don't realize that they're gonna be up against that. They're hiding their money.

[00:08:43] Justin Green, CFP®: Yeah. So there's two situations there. One it's actually just a lot harder being self-employed to get a mortgage. Like that's a really point. Um, there's a lot more vetting, you know, they want to see consistent income. So even if you say you did 20,000 one year and the next year you did 150,000, like they need to see more consistency than that.

Um, and so, you know, honestly, I just think that's really good to know upfront because I find a lot of situations where. Maybe you need to hold onto that corporate life for another year, buy the house and then go do the self-employed thing, because it will be really hard to get that mortgage. So knowing that front's really helpful, uh, to your second point, which I actually don't run into a lot, but I, I have a buddy who does, uh, financial planning for tattoo artists.

And he gets this a lot where people hide their money, but they'll tell him like, yeah, I don't like, I don't claim any of this people, at least don't tell me if they're doing that, uh, with him. Like, they're just like, yeah, I don't claim it. And he. Dude. Like if you don't prove you have an income, it's gonna be extremely hard to get social security down the road, get a mortgage, get a loan.

Like any of those things, like it's, it is good to show you have an income. I get it. You gotta pay taxes on it, but there are downsides to, to showing no income.

[00:09:55] Jeff Su: Right. . 

Yeah. So unless you're 

[00:09:58] Justin Green, CFP®: a. 

[00:09:59] Jeff Su: hiding cash in a mattress somewhere, or, you know, in your backyard, you're gonna face the music sometime down the line later in your later years.

[00:10:07] Justin Green, CFP®: Absolutely. So I wanna expand on this. So you kept going, uh, that was just the beginning. And you said, I hope I hope many of you realize that online coaching is literally a zero overhead business. you need is a phone. It really is. I agree with you there. Um, you know, couple expenses, nothing major, all you need is a phone or laptop and a wifi connection.

You can even ask mom and dad to keep you on the plan. Um, but if your margins are like 40% or less, I know kids operating lemonade stands with better business sense. Some of you are getting fleed.

[00:10:43] Jeff Su: Oh, yes. Well, in our industry, there's also the business coaches, right? So it's the coaches who want to coach the clients. But then they can't get the clients or they can't manage a business. So then you got the coaches who coach the coaches. And so it's become a pyramid scheme almost. And, and I would say probably 99.9% of 'em have no business degree, no business experience.

And they're just basically robbing people, blind paying, you know, 30 K basically for a, a mentorship program. Um, when you can go to business schools for almost that amount of money and get a real degree. So, um, you know, these coaches, they, they encourage you to, to chase after the dollar, right. They dangle that financial carrot in front of you.

And say, don't you wanna make 10 K a month? Don't you wanna make 50 K 30 K. Well, you know what, in order to do that, you gotta build a team. You gotta develop an app, you gotta have these challenges. You gotta hire, the VA says, source clients, you gotta build this business machine around you. And so these coaches, when, when they enter the business, they haven't really even developed any sort of sense of direction or any compass yet.

And then they're, they're basically slapping on clay on top of building this behemoth of a machine. And they end up not being able to, to manage it. It outgrows their own, you know, I guess moral compasses. And then they end up having to feed this machine and that's why, you know, their expenses are adding up and they, they have 40, 50% of their, their revenue being eaten up by paying for these, these things.

[00:12:15] Justin Green, CFP®: Yeah, I call this 

the, the coaching treadmill, right? Like I see it a lot where people dont. Take the time to, to really understand the financial aspects of running a business up front and they get so focused on growing just to grow and they're, you know, reinvesting all their money back into these programs, sometimes multiple different programs and.

What they find is like, so they're not paying theirselves or they're paying themselves just little because they're reinvesting in themselves or in the business. And so they're on this treadmill, right? And so they are growing probably, but they, you know, their revenue's growing, but then their expenses are growing and then eventually you can't get off the treadmill because you haven't rewarded yourself personally.

So you haven't given yourself like the financial flexibility to either stop. Pivot or slow down, right. Because you've gotta keep going at that same pace because your expenses need to be paid. Uh, you're trying to keep up with all the clients that are bringing in this revenue. So it is this like process where I feel like coaches need to take a step back and really figure out like what they want to build up front.

And the financial planning world, we call this, like, are you building a business to sell? Or are you building a lifestyle business? And there's no right or wrong answer.

[00:13:29] Jeff Su: Yeah.

[00:13:30] Justin Green, CFP®: You know, I, if I had to guess I'm I, I think maybe you're building a lifestyle business. I don't know. Am I like, that's what I would guess right now.

Um, and then some coaches are trying to build a business. It's actually really hard to sell a coaching business. I've seen it done a couple times. but it's kind of hard.

[00:13:45] Jeff Su: It, it is hard. I, I would, I wouldn't imagine it to be, to be, to be an easy thing to do. I mean, because the coach is often the, the business itself. And so you'd lose a lot of clients when you're, you're removing yourself out of it. It's not like, uh, you know, you could sell another business at, with like an EBITDA multiple, and then there you go, you know, um, So, um, back to what I was saying though, about like the hiring and all that stuff, is that, you know, you also lose like a sense of, um, skill development.

So I had a guy at DM me the other day. He was like, you know, who did you have build your website? And I was like, I did it. I just figured it out. There's a lot of things. I do myself, graphic design, making shirts, you know, the website, all that stuff. And so people are hiring out and paying for it, but they're also missing out on opportunities to hone other skills.

So it really behooves the business owner to learn as much as you can and do as much as you can on your own.

[00:14:45] Justin Green, CFP®: When would you recommend that they do outsource it? Cause there, I, I would argue there, there is, um, there is a case to delegate and leverage outsourced help, especially if you're building a lifestyle business, like in order to maximize your one on one time, which I, I think I saw on, on one of your stories, you're charging maybe like three to 500 an hour.

So that's really like high volume, high value time for you. You know, you should offload some of the smaller tasks. So when do you kind of make that, that decision?

[00:15:16] Jeff Su: Well, me personally, I haven't offloaded anything. Um, I do have a, an assistant coach that works for me, but out of the 90 clients that we service 70 to 90, depending on the ebbs and flows of the year, uh, she is only coaching 12 clients. So I'm still taking the brunt of the work here. Now in terms of outsourcing or deciding what to outsource, I think you would probably have to do some sort of operational bottleneck analysis and figure out what processes are holding you up and what out of those processes, you can hand off to somebody else so that you can focus more on another bottleneck down the line in your business.

[00:15:53] Justin Green, CFP®: Yeah, absolutely. I would agree. I think. Uh, a handful of things that if you're not really good at, and it takes you a lot of time to work on, uh, and if you're able to outsource it at a lower cost, then it, then it could definitely make the most sense, but that's a lot different than adding on a bunch of assistant coaches and VAs and, and, and ramping up those expenses.

[00:16:12] Jeff Su: Yeah. I mean, it, it comes down to almost like individual profitability analysis in terms of like each section along that supply chain, so to speak or operational chain, which part would you add more value to if you were doing it versus someone else? You know, I think people have to think of it that way.

[00:16:31] Justin Green, CFP®: I don't think there's anyone teaching that there's, uh, very few. In my, what I've noticed, the very few business coaches are touching on the, the finance side where I think there is. Um, there's definitely an area where like basic 1 0 1 business finance could be covered in those programs. I, it, it, it always blows my mind.

When I get a coach who's been through multiple. Uh, programs that are pretty well known amongst a lot of coaches and I've heard good things, I've heard bad things, but they come to me and they've never been introduced to, you know, separating your business and personal expenses, um, tracking their business, cash flows, things, you know, very simple things that should be known to a new business owner.

Like it's very important to do that from the, from day one.

[00:17:19] Jeff Su: Yeah, I focus, you know, with, with my mentoring, I focus on the holistic, you know, basic side of like understanding how you make business decisions. That will serve you best depending on what situations you're in. I think a lot of what I'm seeing out there now is how can you make the most amount of money and how can you use these tips and tricks and tactics and things on social media to get as many people to buy your stuff as possible.

And that's great and all because it works and it's really, really easy money to. But then how do you sustain that and how you manage that? You can't, if you don't understand the basics of business and that's relationships and managing yourself too.

[00:17:59] Justin Green, CFP®: Yeah, no, absolutely. I, I, I, a hundred percent agree. Agree with you there. Um, so I am curious, so you started doing some, some business mentoring. I did notice that one of your posts, you talked about. , you know, you, you help them understand like lab results, but then you also touch marketing and finance a little bit.

So you just kind of, you know, if someone's looking for business mentoring, you know, why are they coming to you?

[00:18:26] Jeff Su: coming to me because they probably spent a lot of money on another program that promised them results. But then they didn't get the one-on-one attention. They were put into some sort of a group mentoring where they could meet with, you know, the business coach once a month, along with 20 other coaches who have 20 other unique businesses or unique problems.

And they didn't get that one-on-one time. They were probably put into contracts where you had to stay for, you know, six to 12 months. If you break the contract, they'll Sue you. Um, or they've probably been, you know, fed misinformation. And when they said that this doesn't work, they were told to, you know, you just need to do it more or you're doing it wrong or whatever, try harder, but without actually giving them the exact steps and tools to, to actually make something happen.

So that's why they're coming to me because I'm a smaller shop and a more boutique.

[00:19:20] Justin Green, CFP®: Gotcha. So that more custom service, more one to one connection. Uh, can really get your hands dirty in understanding their business and what they need rather than just like, here's my framework. It works for everyone. If you're not fault, if it's not working, you're just not doing it hard enough type.

[00:19:35] Jeff Su: Yeah. I mean, I, I just think it's kind of ironic because coaches in general, like any decent coach would know that a cookie cutter. For a client in terms of fitness would be a, a red X, right? Hell no, we're not cookie cutter. Every client has to be custom, but then when they themselves look for a coach, they get sucked into some cookie cutter program.

They're okay with it. It's like in what world does that make any sense? Like coaching a body to change and coaching a business to change have so many parallels. And that's why I love body building. I love business because there's so many things that are exactly the same.

[00:20:10] Justin Green, CFP®: That's actually why I like, uh, working with, uh, the fitness industry, cuz there's a lot of parallels between building wealth and, and you know, building a, a physique or getting healthier or, you know, I'm not, it doesn't have to be body building, but whatever fitness goals you have, the, uh, disciplines, the philosophies.

They, they actually transfer over really well to building wealth, you know? Um, I was just saying this, you know, the other day, I mean, it's like a chloric deficit. Okay. You know, spend less than you earn, like, you know, both are very basic concepts. Sometimes they're harder to implement than they sound. Uh, but you know, grant scheme, they're like, they're very simple, you know what I mean?

Like it's not rocket science to either of 'em. And so I really like, that's why I really like the combination of the two. And, um, you would. that, uh, because I work with coaches and, and a lot of them displayed, you know, the mentality and the, the discipline to achieve really good physiques. You would think it would transfer over into business and the wild side, but it doesn't so they understand why it should, but it doesn't always work that way.

So it's kind of a paradox there.

[00:21:18] Jeff Su: It, it really is. I mean, the people who, you know, are really good at body building, like their work ethic and attention to detail is, is amazing. Right. But it's only with body building and I'm always just like, God damnit, if you could just do this, but do it over here with your family life and do it here with your business, you'd be unstoppable.

But you can't , you know, they 

can't. 

[00:21:41] Justin Green, CFP®: It's hard. You know, you consume a lot of energy in that one aspect of life. That's hard to do it in, in every area. Right. so I, I can understand it as well. Like I, I think they get the ideas, but it's like at the end of the day, if I've used all my reserves on body building and, and being strict and disciplined there, just don't give a fuck about anything else.

like, know, I 

[00:22:04] Jeff Su: you 

only have so much.

[00:22:06] Justin Green, CFP®: Exactly. All right. So I've been warming you up. I got this one screenshot, which I think has about 10 different call outs on it. Um, so it started with, okay. I've seen enough. So I've gotta say that. I'll be honest with you. I'll be up upfront. Some of these I disagree with you on, so talk through 'em all.

Uh, okay. I've seen enough. So I've gotta say this. If you dot, dot, dot cold DM for clients. I agree with you there. I, I think cold DMing is not a great strategy. It might get you a client every now and then, but it's, it's, it's very, uh, low efficiency and I, yeah, that's just not sustainable.

[00:22:42] Jeff Su: Yep.

[00:22:43] Justin Green, CFP®: So I agree with you there.

How funnel groups you post trainings in yet? Nobody watches. Um, I think I would slightly disagree just because like you do, everyone has to start somewhere, right? So some people, if you're a new coach, you will. , I wouldn't wanna discourage you from starting if you're worried that nobody's gonna watch, because the reality is when you first start, you probably won't have a whole lot of eyeballs on you.

[00:23:05] Jeff Su: That's 

true. 

[00:23:06] Justin Green, CFP®: What are your thoughts there though?

[00:23:07] Jeff Su: I think when, when you have groups that are growing to, you know, 5,000 people, 6,000 people, and then you're still not getting any bites. You have to question that, that method. Okay. Like, why are you still, you know, wasting time in this pond, if it's not giving you any ROI. So that's what I mean with 

that. 

[00:23:27] Justin Green, CFP®: Okay. Yeah, no, that's a great point. When you say groups, are you, uh, what are you like you referring to? Like, I see a lot of Facebook groups from fitness

[00:23:35] Jeff Su: Yeah. You know?

[00:23:36] Justin Green, CFP®: like that or.

[00:23:37] Jeff Su: That's a strategy that, you know, came from a couple business coaching brands where you basically poach, um, you know, people that are complaining in various Facebook groups, um, and then pull them into, you know, one of your own. And then you feed them value, hoping that they'll convert to, you know, some sort of a challenge that you're running or a one time program or whatever.

And, and it does work, but it's definitely an outdated, um, way of value creation. I would.

[00:24:05] Justin Green, CFP®: Okay. What's a, what's a better way to do that. What's a, what's a non outdated.

[00:24:12] Jeff Su: I think a better way to do it would be to use more of an inbound approach. So there's inbound marketing and outbound marketing. You've heard of that, but, um, I would say that's a little on the outbound side when you're poaching people from groups. I think inbound marketing is just saying, you know, I'm here, I've got all this value for you.

I got all this free stuff and just keep offering free stuff, showing your personality and then building your following that way. But it takes longer,

[00:24:41] Justin Green, CFP®: Yeah, absolutely. So the group's not the issue. It's the, it's the poaching 'em from other groups. Cause like, I'll see a lot of times on like Instagram people. You know, if you like this, like, you know, join my group, um, to like follow more, which I think there, there is legitimacy there because that, um, That kind of ensures they're gonna see more of your content and doesn't get lost in the algorithm a little bit.

And then the other strategy I've seen there is you can usually get their email when they sign up for the group, which can be really beneficial. If you know, Facebook goes down, Instagram goes down, they're probably never permanently going down, but it could go down for a day or two days that did happen once upon a time.

I remember a year or two ago. Um, so having emails I think is beneficial. Um, the whole like own media versus rented media.

[00:25:27] Jeff Su: Right now, now here, I wanna use this example for people to visualize this. Let's say you're out at a bar and you're with a group of friends that you came in with, and then someone comes up to you and says, Hey, come over and sit with me and my friends over here without doing anything else. You're gonna be like, who the fuck are you?

You're a creep. Get outta here. Right? That's the whole, that's what's going on on Facebook

[00:25:48] Justin Green, CFP®: That's the poach. 

[00:25:49] Jeff Su: what's missing. What's missing. Right. Is personality and trust. Okay. So why should I leave my group and go to your little group to go to your home? When I don't know who you are. Sure. You might have a great offer, or maybe you have something that I want, but I'm not gonna be a little kid getting to a white van for some candy.

You know, I'm smarter than that. So I wanna know what you're all about now. Now let's say that I'm with my group of. and let's say, let's say I'm, I'm a girl and I'm with a, with a group of girls. Right. And then I see this guy over there with his friends and they're joking around, they're singing, they're laughing.

They they're, they're really energetic and they, they seem attractive. Right. And I go over there myself and I introduce myself because it seems fun to be over 

there. 

[00:26:35] Justin Green, CFP®: Yeah. 

[00:26:36] Jeff Su: That's a whole different dynamic now. So that's what I teach my mentees is that you need to leverage your personal. Which will attract your individual audience.

You don't need to go fishing for them.

[00:26:50] Justin Green, CFP®: I think that's an amazing example and the reason I think it's so good is because people forget social media is.

[00:26:59] Jeff Su: Exactly. 

[00:27:00] Justin Green, CFP®: so I think that example is really powerful because you're pulling back in like the, the social aspect of it. And then, okay. Now apply that to social media. It's supposed to be social.

[00:27:15] Jeff Su: Yeah. At the root of every, um, business transaction is, is trust. It's some sort of trust, like when I sell, I don't know if you see, like, when I sell my classes, I have like a class package, right? It's $500, like six classes. It's unbelievable. How many people who I've never talked to? I don't follow them. They don't follow me.

They just send me a DM and say, Hey, can I demo you $500 for your classes? it's to a point where like, I've built enough, like trust equity with so many people that now I can pull people

[00:27:48] Justin Green, CFP®: Yeah, 

[00:27:49] Jeff Su: you know, I want to, when they come to me, but that took a lot of time,

[00:27:53] Justin Green, CFP®: but even then you're not pulling them cuz it's cuz they're coming to.

[00:27:56] Jeff Su: they right. They, they come to me, but that, that took me 10 years.

It took me 10 

years, 

[00:28:00] Justin Green, CFP®: Yeah. It's a long game and people don't, uh, people forget that, you know, it won't work. For 12, you know, it won't work 12 months in, you know, 

it, the 12 months is still too short. It could, but it won't, it, it, it could, but it's not guaranteed.

You know what I mean? Like some people do go, uh, they have viral success. Uh, but even then some, I I'd tend to believe that even the ones who look like they they've had it happen quickly. Like they've been doing years and years of work behind the scenes to get to that point, to make it look like an overnight success.

[00:28:31] Jeff Su: Yeah, 

I agree.

[00:28:34] Justin Green, CFP®: All right. We'll keep. Need to pay people to sign up for your challenges. I would agree with that. I don't see whole lot of, I don't. I haven't seen that. To be honest with you. That's not a strategy I've really seen.

[00:28:46] Jeff Su: There, there are a lot of, uh, people who will, um, do like scholarships. They're called scholarships

[00:28:52] Justin Green, CFP®: Oh, that's your next point? Hold on. We can't jump ahead. That's different. That's your next point?

[00:28:56] Jeff Su: they they're sort of mixed.

[00:28:58] Justin Green, CFP®: All right. All right. So let me read the next one. So have ever used the word scholarship on social media. So I agree with the paying people, but I disagree with the scholarship one. So let's do this one.

[00:29:08] Jeff Su: Hmm. Okay. So you wanna do the paying people one.

[00:29:11] Justin Green, CFP®: Now we'll just combine them. But I have like, I, I agree. You probably shouldn't pay people. Uh, but I don't mind the scholarship.

[00:29:19] Jeff Su: Okay. So the paying people thing is just like, if you're gonna pay somebody to achieve results, you're not really getting people in for the right reasons. They just wanna win some money. So they're probably not gonna stick with you anyway. So you're look you you're, um, chances of converting them long term and to generate long term value is probably very, very low.

[00:29:38] Justin Green, CFP®: Oh, so you're thinking, okay. Nevermind. I, I, I get what you're saying now. So you're talking about like the, the challenges where like, say 20 people sign up and one them's gonna win the. $300, whatever. Gotcha.

[00:29:50] Jeff Su: yeah, So it's, it's a good short term hit, you know, and, and you could probably convert them if you, you know, develop personality and trust and the connection, but most coaches don't know how to do that. They just run the challenge and they run challenge after challenge after challenge, and that's unpredictable cashflow.

So the whole scholarships and, and mentorships and the use of these words to me usually, you know, perks up my ears and, and is red flags when people use these, use these terms and like group calls and, and things like that. I personally, I get hit my hair is on my back. Stand up.

[00:30:28] Justin Green, CFP®: So I've seen the scholarship work, to be honest with you, I've had some clients do it. It definitely brings in, uh, not only clients. Um, but then they, they, you know, People who've been watching you finally reach out, like it gives them almost that call to action to finally be like, you know what, it's my turn.

Like, you know, I'm ready for my fitness transformation. Um, so I've seen that now that I realize what you meant on the challenges I've seen that work is, well, I don't fully understand it, so I've never. Uh, pun intended challenged it, um, because I've seen it work for a couple coaches that I work with. Uh, but I can see the reservations for it.

It can be a short term hit. Um, you know, it would be hard for me to know on my end, like, are those the co are those the clients that are falling off three, six months down the road, depending on what package you signed them up on? You know, I wouldn't know. That's, that's something the coach really would only have the insight on.

Um, and so I could see your, your reservation. There is like, that could be. A short term hit, but is a sustainable long term. Cause I also know some of the coaches I work with that do these, uh, it like it'll burn 'em out. Like, they'll go really hard for a month. Cuz they launch this, they promote it. Then they sign it up and then they work with the people and then they, you know, they go through all the sales calls for everyone signed.

And so it'll like really burn 'em out. And so what it does do, and I think you mentioned this earlier inconsistent or variable. Um, I see it and, and, and we have to plan for this on the finance side is that it'll spike their income. And then their income will drop because not because like clients are leaving, but actually just cuz they're so burnt out that the next month they, they pull back a little bit, they post little less on social media.

Um, they're just not as present. And so you see that immediately in the cash flow. Um, and so it does, it does make it very wavy and that's hard to plan for, for coaches. You know, I do a lot of work on that side of how do we plan for inconsistent cash flow.

[00:32:29] Jeff Su: Yep.

[00:32:30] Justin Green, CFP®: So 

[00:32:30] Jeff Su: I agree with you there.

[00:32:33] Justin Green, CFP®: have forked over 30 to 50,000 in a lump sum for business coaching?

[00:32:39] Jeff Su: Oh 

boy. 

[00:32:40] Justin Green, CFP®: I th no, actually you go first.

[00:32:44] Jeff Su: Yeah. You know, a lot of the people who, um, you know, let's, let's be honest here, right? My mentorship isn't cheap either. If you were to mentor with me for an entire year at two to $3,000 a month, you're paying just about the 

same 

thing. 

[00:32:57] Justin Green, CFP®: Sure.

[00:32:58] Jeff Su: The only difference is I don't require people to stay with me. You go month to month..

There's no contracts. There's no fees. I'm not gonna Sue you. If you leave, it's all on your own. Um, now there are programs out there that do cost that much and you are in contract to do it. Um, I just don't think it's a, it's a good business practice. And especially they're offering financing for them to, you know, join these programs.

And that's just putting people in debt, you know, using their hopes and dreams as that carrot to dangle in front of them. I don't think that's right.

[00:33:32] Justin Green, CFP®: I think you're starting to remember this, this, uh, this rant because you, you, the next line was taken out a credit line for business coaching. Um, so we'll lump those together since you just brought it up as a financial planner, you know, that irks me. Um, I am all for investing in yourself. But I think it's really, really important to one, take it, look at percentage of revenue or profit before making that.

So if you're doing a 30 to 50 K, then you need to be like a really successful profitable coach to make that investment. And I do have coaches that honestly, that investment for them, it's not gonna make or break them. So if it goes really poorly, It's not gonna hurt them, but I have some coaches that are early on in their journey if they were to do that.

And it doesn't, it doesn't pay off. Like they're not gonna be coaching anyone ever again, type thing. You know what I mean? Um, in the credit line for business coaching, that drives me nuts because.

I'm like, I don't mind the whole, like if you start a business and don't have the cash flow, if you wanna take out like a 0% interest credit card, it might make sense, but that probably shouldn't be used for a mentorship program. In my opinion, I have seen it happen. Um, and then it's always like this. Now you're on a rat race to catch up and always, and it's hard to catch up because this isn't just for coaches, anytime anyone gets into credit card debt, that is a challenge.

Right. And so the trend I was starting to see also, and this is a little bit different, was a lot of coaches were looking for how do they provide financing to their clients? And I didn't love that. on one end. Like I do think consumers have the right to choose how they spend their money and if they want to make that choice, they should.

But on the other end, as a financial planner, I'm like, I don't think they should probably be financing that. So, you know, a little bit conflicted there, but yeah, I don't love the whole, like, let's go into debt to invest in yourself. I, I think there's a lot of survivorship bias, uh, used in that sales pitch.

And for me, it's just, it's it's icky.

[00:35:40] Jeff Su: Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly why I, I hate it and I would, I would never do it. I always have a sit down conversation with each person who applies for my mentorship and I straight up, I asked them, I said, you know, how much do you make per. Right now, what are your expenses? Do you have any sort of other income from your spouse or anything what's your, how much do you have in your savings account?

If this were to go south and if it doesn't fit like my, my profile, I tell them that this isn't the right fit for you. And I won't take your money. Um, you know, even if you invest in a, in an accredited university or, or a school you major in something that isn't really useful. You're gonna be working at, you know, Starbucks or Chick-fil-A for a while.

Um, you know, so, so to do that same sort of investment mindset on a business coach who often does not have any sort of formal business training, you're, you're playing like high stakes, you know, blackjack or whatever with your, with your money. it's not, not a good idea.

[00:36:37] Justin Green, CFP®: And I'm not even a big fan of student loans nowadays, either. Just in the sense of like, I think I, I have my qualms with the way college is going. And, uh, if you don't have a really specified degree and from a rec like a really high end university get one of these like general ed degrees and like, Is it worth it, like is the ROI there anymore.

Right. And so for me to have qualms with that, it's hard to be like, well then like support leads, like credit cards for business coaching. Um, so yeah, I think I agree with you on that. I don't like it it's, uh, that bothers me as well. I see it. Sometimes it works. I like not gonna lie. Sometimes it does work.

It pays off. Um, and, and to be devil's advocates like where, well, like they shouldn't be excluded cuz they can't afford it. So where else would they go for advice?

[00:37:25] Jeff Su: mm.

[00:37:26] Justin Green, CFP®: So, you know what I mean? Like, you know, you, know, I, I can see that argument a little bit, but I don't 

know. 

[00:37:33] Jeff Su: Here. Here's the thing. I, I think, you know, it, I think everyone has the right to feeling healthy and, and looking good and they should have some sort of, you know, guidance. Right? I think everyone should be able to afford a coach if they wanted one. Ideally. But we don't live in an ideal world and not every business owner is going to bend their prices and, and, and whatnot.

Right? Like I made a joke about, you know, 10 reasons not to not to buy a Porsche. Right. You walk, you walk into a Porsche dealership and you try to negotiate on a car right now. They'll tell you to get the fuck out of there, because there are people who are willing to pay 20, 30, $50,000 over MSRP for that car.

So, same thing with. It doesn't always behoove the client or you as the business owner to try to wheel in deal. You know, sometimes you're better off just saying no and wishing them the best and they can come back later on

[00:38:28] Justin Green, CFP®: Yeah, absolutely. Call yourself an influencer or entrepreneur. Some of the coaches I work with are genuinely entrepreneurs. Not

[00:38:39] Jeff Su: just. 

[00:38:40] Justin Green, CFP®: Some of 'em genuinely are, I've got some, some good coaches that are in multiple businesses. Um, for your average, I mean, I don't know that word doesn't carry the weight that it used to, in my opinion,

[00:38:54] Jeff Su: right. Yeah. It's just that, you know, I'm just making a joke there, but, you know, I guess, you know, I could say I'm an entrepreneur, right. Because I started a, a business and it is doing pretty well, but I don't like labeling myself that way because it's just, it's overused and it's kind of corny, so 

yeah.

[00:39:10] Justin Green, CFP®: Yeah. I'm only gonna say the last point, cuz it's funny bonus points. If you're a business coach while living at home with mom and dad,

[00:39:17] Jeff Su: Okay. All right. So this, this really fucking grinds my 

gears, 

[00:39:21] Justin Green, CFP®: that there's gotta be something in mind. You must have seen this before for you to put that on there.

[00:39:25] Jeff Su: I, I have had clients of mine, ex clients of. Take the information that I give them or that they've learned, and then immediately start business coaching. Other people like I'll give an example here. Obviously no names, right by no book girl who, you know, her dad owns like the, the apartment complex that she lives in and probably subsidizes her rent.

She drives like a really, really nice car. I'm not gonna say what brand the car is, but I don't think she purchased the car on her 

own. 

[00:39:55] Justin Green, CFP®: We'll just say a Porsche and we'll just go

[00:39:57] Jeff Su: Yeah, let's say, let's say it's a Porsche, right? And so she is in her early twenties and she's giving business mentorship to other coaches when she's only been coaching for probably two years, max it's like what sort of experience and insight could you put possibly offer being 20 years old and, and being in this business for two years, you've never seen the.

You've only lemon. that's it like, wait until you have a bad month and then let's see how, how you call yourself a mentor or a leader. You know, it just it's, it's fascinating to me that people will actually buy this shit though. But you know, I guess, you know, everyone has their own money and they can make their own decisions.

Right.

[00:40:38] Justin Green, CFP®: Yeah. So, I mean, you know, the, so on one end, I would agree there's some merit to that. Like there's people pretending to be mentors that don't have the experience, the knowledge. Or just the, the, the length of like being in the game long enough to be a mentor. Um, I have actually chatted with a few, uh, younger business coaches where I probably would've thought the same.

And then I got on calls with them and I was actually kind of surprised like, wow, you are. I, I find, I can tell really quickly. Who's a really good business minded coach and who's not, and I've been surprised sometimes by some of the people I hop on calls. and I'm like, oh, I can see why people really attract you because you actually are very business minded.

And you're really good at this. Like kind of talking to you. I'm getting a lot of these vibes. Um, I have actually talked to young coaches that in my opinion would probably be too young to be like a business mentor. And then I hop on these calls with them and I'm like, Wow. Like you're a lot smarter than I was anticipating.

You know what I mean? Um, and so I don't think age is everything, but I, I agree with your point and I don't think it's just in the fitness industry. I think it's a social, uh, phenomenon in general is like these, like faking, like someone in that situation who like you haven't made it, like you're being subsidized, right?

If, if car is not paid for, by you, the house isn't paid for by you, but you're kind of flexing on it. You're not a mentor. You're kind of faking it. This will catch up to you eventually. Like it always does. I don't know. I feel like it always catches up almost nobody survives this long term.

[00:42:17] Jeff Su: I agree with that. Yeah. I mean, it's just, um, I just think, you know, when I was in, when I was like 24, 25 or I'm 38 now, if you had asked me like, oh, do I know everything at 24, 25? I'd be like, yeah, I'm great. Whatever. Right. But age kind of humbles you a little bit. And life kicks you in the fucking nuts, and then you fail and you lose things, right?

And then things don't happen for you the way you, you dreamed of. Right. And that's how we get older. Right? We're not bright-eyed and bushy-tailed anymore getting into our forties. Most of us are pretty downtrodden in, in some areas of life. Right. And that's maturity, that's introspection and that's hindsight is 2020.

And when you're 20 years old, you just don't have that. You, you, you can't cause you haven't lived life.

[00:43:03] Justin Green, CFP®: I would agree with that for sure. Yeah. They, they can bring stuff to the table. 

[00:43:06] Jeff Su: Yeah. 

[00:43:07] Justin Green, CFP®: They can't they can't bring, uh, years of experience sometimes that's good and sometimes that's that's bad.

[00:43:12] Jeff Su: by default. Yeah.

[00:43:14] Justin Green, CFP®: Exactly. Yeah, no, that's it for that one. That was the whole story right there. That was a long one. Um, you probably got some DMS on that.

People, people DM you a lot when you, when you go on these 

[00:43:25] Jeff Su: Jesus. Yeah, my phone, I shut my phone off for this, uh, call because I probably talked to 30 different people per day. Um, Yeah, it's nuts.

[00:43:35] Justin Green, CFP®: Yeah. I bet get a lot of hate or people being like, dude, I'm so glad you said.

[00:43:41] Jeff Su: no, you know, I actually never get any hate. Even when I put up those like anonymous, like, you know, question boxes, I was hoping somebody would be like, you know, fucking calling me names or saying shit to me, but nobody ever does. So.

[00:43:53] Justin Green, CFP®: Yeah. Yeah. Those ones are dangerous. Once they came out with that anonymous one, sometimes I'm like, I mean, why would we fuel the internet with anonymous questions? Internet's the internet can be bad enough on its 

own. 

[00:44:04] Jeff Su: Oh, yeah, 

[00:44:05] Justin Green, CFP®: like, why do, why do we have to make it anonymous? You 

know what I 

mean? 

[00:44:08] Jeff Su: Hate

[00:44:09] Justin Green, CFP®: So 

any other topics you wanna cover?

I don't have any other screenshots. Those were the, the three I had, I, I knew they would cover quite a bit. Anything else you're seeing out there that you're like, man, this is just crazy.

[00:44:22] Jeff Su: I just think, you know, just don't rush. You know, I just, you know, in social media and the fitness industry just attracts like a certain type of person and, you know, I, I am that type of person. You know, a lot of us come from trauma, come from not being wanted, wanting to be somebody make a difference, make money, look good.

Be seen. Right. Um, I came from that kind of a background, right? I won't digress into that rabbit hole, but as I've gotten older, I've realized that there are things that I don't need to be doing anymore. I've made peace with myself or am making peace with other areas of myself. I don't require me to, to put on armor and go out there and look a certain way.

Um, I think when you run a business and you live a life on your terms, rather than trying to prove things or trying to show people that you can do it and you're doing it because you wanna do it. Um, you're the, the money you make becomes a lot cleaner and the lifestyle you lead is a lot more peaceful.

[00:45:21] Justin Green, CFP®: yeah. You know, it's, uh, I, I like what you just said there, because there's a really, really great opportunity to live a really good life as like a fitness coach to have like a lifestyle business, be really successful and then make a, you know, make enough money to live a really good life. You know, not the flashiest life, not the.

know, talking on stage in front of 50,000 people, but like really good lives, like better than probably 99% of the average American. Like there's a really good opportunity there. 

Um, in my profession we see a lot of that. We like, there's a lot of people chasing that, that lifestyle, uh, firm, so to say, and just like creating a business that really supports.

A peaceful life that they wanna live with their family and et cetera, and travel and whatever it is they value. Um, and I, I don't know if I see enough. Um, I know there's people doing it, but I don't know if I see it, uh, applauded as much in the fitness world as I do in the finance world.

[00:46:22] Jeff Su: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, everyone's always wanting more, right? You wanna build your body bigger, you wanna get leaner, you wanna make more money and that's, that's a whole nother topic, right? The question of, you know, when do you stop? 

When, 

[00:46:34] Justin Green, CFP®: What's when's yeah. Yeah. When, when is

[00:46:37] Jeff Su: right? 

[00:46:38] Justin Green, CFP®: and that's a, yeah. When is enough in that terms? Money wise? What, what's enough for you? Um, because like, as you know, you can chase every dollar you can keep going. There's always gonna be someone richer than. Um, you know, unless I'm talking to the next Bezos here, like someone is always gonna be richer than you.

Right. So if you can't figure out where that goal line is, you will always keep pushing it out at the expense of health relationships, and many other things.

[00:47:11] Jeff Su: Yep. 

I agree. 

[00:47:14] Justin Green, CFP®: all right. I got a question for you that I ask everyone. It's a new one, so I didn't prepare you for this. I apologize. What is the most irrational or emotional money decision you've made?

[00:47:27] Jeff Su: irrational or emotional.

[00:47:29] Justin Green, CFP®: Yeah. 

[00:47:31] Jeff Su: Uh, I wouldn't say this is irrational, but I wasn't joking about the Porsche thing. I do have a brand new nine 11 career for us coming in October. Um, 

it is an 

emotional, 

[00:47:43] Justin Green, CFP®: about cars, so you're gonna have to fill me in on, on, uh, why you got that. What, like that costs

[00:47:51] Jeff Su: it's a, it's a Porsche. It's it's not only a car. It's a, it's a machine. It's an icon. It's, it's an American. and, uh, you know, to me, you know, being the, the first generation, you know, son of Taiwanese immigrants, you know, this is like mom and dad, you know, Hey, you know, , we did it.

[00:48:08] Justin Green, CFP®: it's a than a car. 

[00:48:09] Jeff Su: it's, it's a lot more than a car to me.

And, uh, it, it wasn't cheap. It was 200, $6,000. I paid $20,000 over the MSRP in order to get the allocation, because you can't just walk into a Porsche dealership to buy one. You need to know somebody who can give you the opportunity to buy one because the dealerships only have certain allocations. And I was lucky enough to know some people who invited me to, to buy one.

Um, so yeah, that is certainly an emotional purchase. Um, is it the smartest financial decision? Probably not, but I'm also renovating my house. Um, I'm doing landscaping, so I'm doing a lot of things to improve my life overall the way I want it. And I don't regret that one, but

[00:48:56] Justin Green, CFP®: Cool. I appreciate that answer. I just started asking that on my last couple of, I. Uh, and two outta three have, have, uh, mentioned the car. So one of guests bought a RA range Rover. Um, and then, you know, you mentioned the Porsche, which, you know, I, I actually didn't catch that. When you first said that on Instagram earlier, I didn't realize you had bought a Porsche.

thought you I thought you making a joke. And I was, so when you just said that you caught me off guard, uh, so I wanna flip it around on. Is there, uh, you know, you've got a financial planner in front of you. Is there a general finance question that you, you know, you'd like to hit me.

[00:49:32] Jeff Su: what else should I be doing with my money? To have it make money for me.

[00:49:38] Justin Green, CFP®: so I don't know your personal situation and I won't give specific advice, but I'll talk about, um, some of the, the things that you should be doing is obviously one you should be sitting on, you know, a little bit of cash for rainy day, right? That's like step one, building out that, uh, rainy day fund, emergency fund, whatever people wanna call it.

Right. Then you should be paying. So paying yourself looks a lot, like a lot of different things. It could be, you know, saving in a 401k could be saving in a taxable brokerage account. once you start saving. Then you need to actually invest the money. Some people miss that step, they think you just put the money in a, in an investment account and it invests itself.

So then you have to choose your investments. Right? I, my philosophy is very low cost, uh, index funds. If you want to add in a little bit of a sleeve of active funds, that's fine. Just trying to keep it low cost. I consider that as like the supplements, right? If you're doing all the right stuff, you want to add some supplements.

Sure. But don't. A hundred percent supplements. It won't work for you. So I always recommend, you know, looking at some low cost index funds to kind of grow that over time, um, avoid day trading. So, you know, the risk reward, the risk reward's not there. And, you know, stock market over the long term, really successful and stock market in the short term is flipping a coin.

Right. Um, if you're doing. Uh, then, you know, I would say the best thing after that is to figure out what you actually need to live. Um, and then start figuring out how do you, and it sounds like you figured this out, but, uh, spending money on yourself. So a lot of times people ask the question of, you know, how do I do more?

How do I save more? How do I invest more to grow my money? Um, at the expense of like, Hey, maybe you're doing. And you should enjoy life a little bit now, because the reality is we don't know, uh, if tomorrow comes right. And so you don't want to, you know, you know, I talk about this a lot. Like you don't wanna do this whole like grind and save and invest for 45 years and think you're gonna retire at 65 and then, you know, you only live to 70.

Right. So, you know, I think that's one of the biggest ones that people miss is like, how do I then, uh, step back and, and live life a little bit and balance that with investing and growing my.

[00:51:51] Jeff Su: I love that you said that I'm a firm believer in that you don't take any of this shit with you when you die, but you do want enough to keep you alive until that day.

[00:51:59] Justin Green, CFP®: Yeah, it's a, it's a paradox, right? You don't wanna run out, uh, But you also don't wanna like skimp every single day and then, and then pass away early. My, I lost my mom at 40, so I have a unique perspective from this. And then I had a cousin, uh, he served in the army for 23 years, a lot of sacrifices, multiple divorces.

And, uh, he retired at the age of 43 after 23 years in the army. And he was so excited to retire, lived this civilian life went out, bought himself a BMW, and then he actually, within six months had passed away. And so 23 years to sacrifice in the military. And I always wondered, like, would he, would he have done that again?

Right. Never got to ask him that, but would he have. Maybe left, you know, at 20 years like that three years could have been really valuable. That had been three and a half years, um, out of the military. And instead he only got six months and it was. It was just a brain condition. I came outta nowhere. So it wasn't even like, it was just like, oh, he's in the hospital.

And then, you know, a couple weeks later he was just gone. So didn't see it coming, never had a time to really stop and, you know, enjoy life after that, all those sacrifices. And so I was just trying to warn people. You don't know when that's coming, right. So you don't wanna be irresponsible, but you don't wanna be so responsible that you regret not having lived your life

[00:53:20] Jeff Su: I agree beautifully said,

[00:53:21] Justin Green, CFP®: go, man. Where can people find you?

[00:53:24] Jeff Su: uh, mostly on Instagram. So my handle is at first call out fitness. I have a website first call fitness.com. I'm on Facebook. You can look me up. Jeffrey Su. Other than that, I'm not gonna give up my phone number. Don't fucking text me. and that's about it.

[00:53:40] Justin Green, CFP®: Go man. Hey, I appreciate you coming on. Let me put you in the hot seat a little bit. Uh, I really appreciated the conversation. I think those were all, uh, great insights. You had great reasons for mentioning them, even if I didn't fully, you know, agree with every point you had. I think you're coming at it from the right stance.

And so I just appreciate you coming on, chatting with me and, uh, yeah, appreciate it, man.